>>>
Вы упрощаете ситуацию - не упоминая некоторые аспекты, которые и позволяют Web-сервисам быть модными.
Текстовый, а не бинарный, открытый и простой стандарт - имеет место быть.
>>>

Well, history says that only SIMPLE solutions win :-) Anyway, it looks like we have to define what do you mean by Web Services first. Second, the number of home appliences is growing so fast, no one will be even willing to communicate to them in "simple text format". Devices should be controlled by other devices and here the "simple text format" becomes obsolete. Again, I would recommend to read a little about home appliences network communication standards, which already exist for quiet a while.

May I ask, have you ever done marshalling/unmarshalling real XML to the objects back and forth?

cheers,

serge

Вы упрощаете ситуацию - не упоминая некоторые аспекты, которые и позволяют Web-сервисам быть модными.
Текстовый, а не бинарный, открытый и простой стандарт - имеет место быть. Если появится замена, то она будет сходной.
Для общения между друг другом бытовой технике в теории вэб-сервисы не нужны, но с ними проще. Это упрощает создание базиса для взаимодействия. Особенно для третьих лиц. Замена только одна - создать "новый" полноценный и многоплатформенный api. Но зачем? Лучше расширить спецификацию soap.

>>>
>>>Wide spread usage of Object/Relational mapping allows people generate Entity EJB automatically
As I understand, the goal of CMP was to eliminate all those O/R tools like Cocobase and TopLink, and provide a standart for O/R mapping.
Now, when it's failed, SUN is rolling out next Big Thing for same purpose - JDO.
>>>

I think CMP was rolled out as an "ultimate SQL" thing, as a "stored procedure killer". Anyone who knows what objects are all about understand the intrinsinc controversary of relational databases to the object world. TOPLINK helps to cover this gap and makes things look better, though the ultimate goal is to move to real object storages, like GemStone or POET.  Again, JDO is not a part of J2EE, so this comparison is not perfectly correct one. CMP Entity EJBs found their place and actually, suprisingly enough, perform better than BMP ones.

>>>
Hey Serge, I like you consistent answers in english. :))) Is this 'cause you care about education of russian programmers, or there's any other reason ? Don't bother to answer if you don't want to.
>>>

Well, from one hand I understand that it is not very good to write in english here. From another hand, I have not had russian keyboard for more then 7 years and it is kind of ackward for me to type in russian (takes more time).

I think russian programmers have much better potential on global market place then, let's say indian ones, because russian level of formal mathematical education is much higher (at least it was 20 years ago). 
There is a huge advantage however of indian software developers over russian and chineese ones, - english is almost their native tongue.
Russians should keep in mind, that software development becomes some sort of "commodity" bussiness, so moving offshore is the most natural thing for american/western european companies and it is much easier to manage english speaking people remotely. This is unfortunate, but true, we have to adopt Englsih like all other smaller nations did (Sweeden, Holland, even Germany, well France is a special case :-)
Anyway it is better than our russian pregrammer's slang where people write english words transliterating them in cyrillic.

Happy New Year, I hope a peacefull one.

serge
p.s. The original article is sucks, it even is not worthy reading in rest room

2 serge
Jini is an amazing technology. That's a pity that such simple and powerfull things happen after "sucsessfull" bloat like J2EE.

>>>Wide spread usage of Object/Relational mapping allows people generate Entity EJB automatically
As I understand, the goal of CMP was to eliminate all those O/R tools like Cocobase and TopLink, and provide a standart for O/R mapping.
Now, when it's failed, SUN is rolling out next Big Thing for same purpose - JDO.
...Anyway, I don't hold a breath for WebServices. Too young technology, too much problems that yet to be addressed.
--------------------
Hey Serge, I like you consistent answers in english. :))) Is this 'cause you care about education of russian programmers, or there's any other reason ? Don't bother to answer if you don't want to.
Happy New Year.

>>> >>>how about security?
А никак! :)) Какая безопасноcть на 80 порту, да еще и открытым текстом.
>>>

So, this is the answer on the question... The major priority for business is security. SOAP is a bloated pig, instead just move the objects.

>>>Это мне напоминает ситуацию с CMP (container managed persistence в EJB). Столько шуму было, а кончилось тем, что на всех сайтах в один голос говорят - не пользуйтесь CMP и EntityBeans . Да и SUN, выводит теперь на сцену вместо CMP - JDO, только не говорит что "вместо", стыдно наверное :)))
>>>

No, situation is different. First off, CMP is getting traction in business. After havy load stress tests people started realized that BMP gives worse performance. Wide spread usage of Object/Relational mapping allows people generate Entity EJB automatically. I do not think JDO is a part of J2EE, so your statement is not correct, it is just another technology to do things with DB trying to avoid usage of a J2EE App Server, that's it.

You may say that JINI is also something SUN is ashamed about, because everything you can make on J2EE server, i can do with Jini.

cheers,

serge

>>>how about security?
А никак! :)) Какая безопасноcть на 80 порту, да еще и открытым текстом.
Комитет по стандартизации W3C до сих пор не договорился по протоколам обеспечения безопасности в WebServices, и похоже никогда и не договорится. Кроме того MS, IBM, и SUN тянут одеяло каждый в свою сторону.
Наверное потому все реализации WebServices на сегодня - это public services типа гугла, где безопасность не нужна.
Это мне напоминает ситуацию с CMP (container managed persistence в EJB). Столько шуму было, а кончилось тем, что на всех сайтах в один голос говорят - не пользуйтесь CMP и EntityBeans . Да и SUN, выводит теперь на сцену вместо CMP - JDO, только не говорит что "вместо", стыдно наверное :)))
Что сказать, будем посмотреть.

>>> Всему найдётся место под солнцем.

No, it is not true. There are so many good things completely forgotten in software. (algol 68, TAO OS, occam). There is business and bussiness decides what should be on the market place. That's why we all eat Microsoft and Intel shit right now.

>>> Фактически я предполагаю, что, например, вся Internet-enabled бытовая техника будет теперь иметь не Web-странички, а Web-services, т.к. это более универсально и более применимо к приложениям-автоматизаторам и концепции smart-home.


Wrong, "Internet-enabled" home appliences do not need Web Services to talk to each other. Look at very good example what the smart-home really is on Echelon web site. There is no place for WebServices there, home appliences do nor need SOAP/XML to talk to each other.

>>> Кроме того, Google API - не игрушка, а первая ласточка

Geez, people use screen scrapping for ages!, wake up, it is not WebServices at all.

The whole concept of UDDI (a WebService broker) smells fishy, how about security? Why should corporations trust the strangers on the Net?

cheers,

serge

Всему найдётся место под солнцем. Та же концепция перемещаемых агентов крайне интересна и многообещающа.
Но со своей стороны должен отметить, что Web-сервисам жить однозначно, и не как игрушкам.
Фактически я предполагаю, что, например, вся Internet-enabled бытовая техника будет теперь иметь не Web-странички, а Web-services, т.к. это более универсально и более применимо к приложениям-автоматизаторам и концепции smart-home.
Кроме того, Google API - не игрушка, а первая ласточка. Задача поиска в Сети - идеальный кандидат на Web-service. Равно как и такие задачи, как информирование и курсах акций, валют, прогнозах погоды и так далее.
Есть и иные варианты применения таких сервисов. Но есть общая черта - есть провайдер услуг, и есть много сторонних пользователей.

I think Web Services will not fly. There are so many issues with security and scalability, that one would be better off to implement JCA resource adapter. COBRA's days have already passed on, I am very surprised to see any discussion about COBRA even. The major next thing is "code moving" (Jini in Java) well we have seen this in TAO OS a decade ago, but now it is in mainstream.

The marshalling un-marshalling problem with passing XML back and forth is a real issue. I know hardware products which do only that! That means that thisis one of the major drawbacks.

If you think Web Services like screen scraping of Google, - then probably this is one of the places where they can be usefull, but it is just a toy.

>>>формат передаваемых данных. Но и это ВСЕГДА(!) зависит от конкретной системы

Вот и сделали чтоб не зависел, и чтоб любая хреновина, могущая делать http post могла общаться с КИС